LIVE TRANSCRIPT SERVICE:
Saddleback Civil Forum on the Presidency
---------------------------------------------------------------------
THE COMPUTERIZED, REALTIME NOTES (COMPUTER NOTES, ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPTS, OR DISKS) CANNOT BE USED, CITED, OR CERTIFIED AS THE OFFICIAL RECORD OR CERTIFIED TRANSCRIPT OF THE CIVIL FORUM ON PRESIDENCY. THERE MAY BE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE COMPUTERIZED, REALTIME NOTES AND THE CERTIFIED TRANSCRIPT. ONLY THE CERTIFIED TRANSCRIPT OF THE CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER CAN BE THE OFFICIAL RECORD OF THE CIVIL FORUM ON PRESIDENCY BEING TAKEN.

3

4

5

6 Pastor Rick: THANK YOU. BE SEATED. WELCOME TO THE

7 SADDLEBACK CIVIL FORUM ON THE PRESIDENCY. I GUESS YOU GOT

8 MY INVITATION. WE'RE HERE AT SADDLEBACK CHURCH HERE IN

9 LAKE FOREST CALIFORNIA AND TONIGHT WE'RE GOING TO USE THE

10 INTERVIEW FORMAT WITH THESE TWO CANDIDATES NOW WE BELIEVE

11 IN THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE, BUT WE DO NOT

12 BELIEVE IN THE SEPARATION OF FAITH AND POLITICS BECAUSE

13 FAITH IS JUST A WORLD VIEW AND EVERYBODY HAS SOME KIND OF

14 WORLD VIEW AND IT'S IMPORTANT TO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE.

15 NOW WHAT I'VE DECIDED IS TO ALLOW FOR PROPER

16 COMPARISON I'M GOING TO ASK IDENTICAL QUESTIONS TO EACH OF

17 THESE CANDIDATES SO YOU CAN COMPARE APPLES TO APPLES. NOW

18 SENATOR OBAMA IS GOING TO GO FIRST. WE FLIPPED A COIN.

19 AND WE HAVE SAFELY PLACED SENATOR MCCAIN IN A CONE OF

20 SILENCE. EACH OF THE INTERVIEWS WILL BE SEGMENTED INTO

21 FOUR DIFFERENT SECTIONS WE'RE GOING TO LOOK AT A FOUR

22 DIFFERENT THINGS AND THE NUMBER OF QUESTIONS ANSWERED IN

23 EACH SEGMENT WILL DEPEND ON HOW SUCCINCT THE SENATOR IS.

24 I HAVE TO TELL YOU UP FRONT, BOTH THESE GUYS ARE

25 MY FRIENDS. I DON'T HAPPEN TO AGREE WITH EVERYTHING



1 EITHER OF THEM TEACH OR BELIEVE BUT THEY BOTH CARE DEEPLY

2 ABOUT AMERICA. THEY'RE BOTH PATRIOTS AND THEY HAVE VERY

3 DIFFERENT VIEWS ON HOW AMERICA CAN BE STRENGTHENED IN

4 AMERICA. WE'VE GOT TO LEARN TO DISAGREE WITHOUT

5 DEMONIZING EACH OTHER AND WE NEED TO RESTORE CIVILITY. WE

6 NEED TO RESTORE CIVILITY IN OUR CIVIL DISCOURSE AND THAT'S

7 THE GOAL OF THE SADDLEBACK CIVIL FORUM. SO LET'S GET

8 STARTED AND WILL YOU WELCOME SENATOR BARACK OBAMA. THANK

9 YOU. GOOD TO SEE YOU. HOW ARE YOU DOING?

10 A GOOD.

11 Q GOOD TO SEE YOU. I'M GLAD YOU ARE HERE. THANK

12 YOU FOR BEING HERE.

13 A THANK YOU. THANK YOU.

14 Q IF YOU WERE A TREE --

15 A PRETTY GOOD CROWD YOU GOT HERE. YOU GOT A GOOD

16 CROWD.

17 Q WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT FOUR DIFFERENT ISSUES,

18 BARACK. THE FIRST YOUR IS ON LEADERSHIP.

19 A RIGHT.

20 Q THESE FIRST SET OF QUESTIONS DEAL WITH YOUR

21 PERSONAL LIFE AS A LEADER AND I'M NOT GOING TO DO THIS

22 WITH ANY OTHER SEGMENT, BUT AS PASTOR I'VE GOT SOME VERSES

23 THAT HAVE TO DO WITH LEADERSHIP. THE FIRST ISSUE IS THE

24 AREA OF LISTENING. THERE IS A VERSUS IN PROVERBS THAT

25 SAYS FOOLS THINK THEY NEED NO ADVICE BUT WISE LISTEN TO


1 OTHER PEOPLE. WHO ARE THE THREE WISEST PEOPLE YOU KNOW IN

2 YOUR LIFE AND WHO ARE YOU GOING TO RELY ON HEAVILY IN YOUR

3 ADMINISTRATION?

4 A WELL, FIRST OF ALL, LET ME THANK YOU FOR HAVING

5 ME HERE, RICK.

6 Q YOU'RE WELCOME.

7 A I LOVE THE MINISTRIES THAT ARE TAKING PLACE HERE

8 AT SADDLEBACK THIS IS THE SECOND TIME I'VE BEEN HERE.

9 FIRST TIME WE HAD A WONDERFUL TIME --

10 ARE CONSTANTLY HELPING TO SHAPE MY VIEWS AND MY

11 OPINIONS. YOU MENTIONED ONE PERSON ID BE LISTENING TO AND

12 THAT'S MICHELLE, MY WIFE, WHO IS NOT ONLY WISE BUT SHE'S

13 HONEST. AND ONE OF THE THINGS YOU NEED -- I THINK ANY

14 LEADER NEEDS IS SOMEBODY WHO CAN GET UP IN YOUR FACE AND

15 SAY, BOY, YOU REALLY SCREWED THAT ONE UP. YOU REALLY BLEW

16 THAT.

17 Q YOUR WIFE'S LIKE THAT TOO?

18 A YES. YES. SO -- SO THAT'S VERY HELPFUL.

19 ANOTHER PERSON IN THAT CATEGORY IS MY GRANDMOTHER WHO'S AN

20 EXTRAORDINARY WOMAN. SHE WAS NEVER WENT TO COLLEGE. SHE

21 WORKED ON A BOMBER ASSEMBLY LINE DURING WORLD WAR II WHEN

22 MY GRANDFATHER WAS AWAY, CAME BACK, GOT A JOB AS A

23 SECRETARY, WORKED HER WAY UP TO BECOME A BANK VICE

24 PRESIDENT BEFORE SHE RETIRED AND SHE'S JUST A VERY

25 GROUNDED COMMON SENSE NO FUSS NO FRILL KIND OF PERSON AND




1 WHEN I'VE GOT BIG DECISIONS I OFTEN CHECK IN WITH HER.

2 LOST FEED.

3 IN TERMS OF THE ADMINISTRATION OR HOW I WOULD

4 APPROACH THE PRESIDENCY, I DON'T THINK I'D RESTRICT MYSELF

5 TO THREE PEOPLE. THERE ARE PEOPLE LIKE SAM DUNN A

6 DEMOCRAT OR DICK LUKER A REPUBLICAN WHO I LISTENED TO ON

7 POLICY ON DOMESTIC POLICY. I GOT FRIENDS RANGING FROM TED

8 KENNEDY TO TOM COLBERT WHO DON'T NECESSARILY AGREE ON A

9 LOT OF THINGS BUT WHO BOTH, I THINK, HAVE A SINCERE DESIRE

10 TO SEE THIS COUNTRY IMPROVE. WHAT I FOUND IS VERY HELPFUL

11 TO ME IS TO HAVE A TABLE WHERE A LOT OF DIFFERENT POINTS

12 OF VIEW ARE REPRESENTED AND WHERE I CAN SIT AND POKE AND

13 PROD AND ASK THEM QUESTIONS.

14 Q YEAH.

15 A SO THAT I'M NOT -- SO THAT ANY BLIND SPOTS I HAVE

16 OR PREDISPOSITIONS THAT I HAVE THAT MY ASSUMPTIONS ARE

17 CHALLENGED AND I THINK THAT THAT'S AN EXTRAORDINARY

18 IMPORTANT.

19 Q OKAY. ALL RIGHT. LET'S TALK ABOUT PERSONAL

20 LIFE. THE BIBLE SAYS THAT INTEGRITY AND LOVE ARE THE

21 BASIS FOR LEADERSHIP. THIS IS A TOUGH QUESTION, WHAT

22 WOULD BE LOOKING OVER YOUR LIFE, EVERYBODY'S GOT WINGS,

23 NOBODY'S PERFECT, WOULD BE THE GREATEST MORAL FAILURE IN

24 YOUR LIFE AND WHAT WOULD BE THE GREATEST MORAL FAILURE OF

25 AMERICA?
1 A WELL, IN MY OWN LIFE -- I'D BREAK IT UP IN

2 STAGES. I HAD A DIFFICULT YOUTH. MY FATHER WASN'T IN THE

3 HOUSE. I'VE WRITTEN ABOUT THIS AND, YOU KNOW, THERE WERE

4 TIMES WHERE I EXPERIMENTED WITH DRUGS. I DRANK, YOU KNOW,

5 IN MY TEENAGE YEARS AND WHAT I TRACED THIS TO IS A CERTAIN

6 SELFISH NECESSARY ON MY PART. I WAS SO OBSESSED WITH ME

7 AND YOU KNOW THE REASONS THAT I MIGHT BE DISSATISFIED THAT

8 I COULDN'T FOCUS ON OTHER PEOPLE. AND YOU KNOW I THINK

9 THE PROCESS FOR ME OF GROWING UP WAS TO RECOGNIZE THAT

10 IT'S NOT ABOUT ME, IT'S ABOUT --

11 Q I LIKE THAT. I LIKE THAT.

12 A IT'S ABOUT -- ABSOLUTELY, BUT LOOK, THE -- WHEN

13 I -- WHEN I FIND MYSELF TAKING THE WRONG STEP, I THINK A

14 LOT OF THE TIMES IT'S BECAUSE I'M TRYING TO PROTECT MYSELF

15 INSTEAD OF TRYING TO DO GOD'S WORK.

16 Q FUNDAMENTAL SELFISHNESS?

17 A SO THAT I THINK IS MY OWN FAILURE NOW.

18 Q WHAT ABOUT AMERICA?

19 A I THINK AMERICA'S GREATEST MORAL FAILURE IN MY

20 LIFETIME HAS BEEN THAT WE STILL DON'T ABIDE BY THAT BASIC

21 RECEPT IN MATTHEW THAT WHATEVER YOU DO FOR THE LEAST OF MY

22 BROTHERS, YOU DO FOR ME.

23 Q YOU DO FOR ME, YEAH.

24 A AND NOTION OF -- THAT BASIC PRINCIPLE APPLIES TO

25 POVERTY. IT APPLIES TO RACISM AND SEXISM. IT APPLIES TO,


1 YOU KNOW, NOT HAVING -- NOT THINKING ABOUT PROVIDING

2 LADDERS OF OPPORTUNITY FOR PEOPLE TO GET INTO THE MIDDLE

3 CLASS. I MEAN, THERE IS A PURVASIVE SENSE I THINK THAT

4 THIS COUNTRY IS WEALTHY AND POWERFUL AS WE STILL DON'T

5 SPEND ENOUGH TIME THINKING ABOUT THE LEAST OF THESE --

6 Q ABOUT THE COMMON GOOD, THE COMMON GROUND AND

7 COMMON GOOD.

8 CAN YOU GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE OF A TIME YOU KNOW A

9 LOT -- I'VE SEEN A LOT OF GOOD LEGISLATIONS GETS KILLED

10 BECAUSE OF PARTY LOYALTY. CAN YOU GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE OF

11 WHERE YOU WIN AGAINST PARTY LOYALTY AND MAYBE EVEN WIN

12 AGAINST YOUR OWN BEST INTEREST FOR THE GOOD OF AMERICA?

13 A WELL, I'LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE THAT IN FACT I

14 WORKED WITH JOHN MCCAIN ON AND THAT WAS THE ISSUE OF

15 CAMPAIGN ETHICS REFORM AND FINANCE REFORM. THAT WASN'T

16 PROBABLY IN MY INTEREST OR HIS FOR THAT MATTER BECAUSE THE

17 TRUTH WAS BOTH DEMOCRATS OR REPUBLICAN SOR OF LIKE THE

18 STATUS QUO AND I WAS NEW TO THE SENATE AND IT DIDN'T

19 NECESSARILY ENGENDER A LOT OF POPULARITY WHEN I STARTED

20 SAYING YOU KNOW WE'RE GOING TO ELIMINATE MEALS AND GIFTS

21 FROM CORPORATE LOBBYISTS. I REMEMBER ONE OF MY COLLEAGUES

22 WHOSE NAME WILL BE UNMENTIONED WHO SAID, WELL, WHERE DO

23 YOU EXPECT US TO EAT MCDONALD'S? AND I THOUGHT WELL,

24 ACTUALLY, A LOT OF OUR CONSTITUENTS PROBALBY DO EAT AT

25 MCDONALD'S SO THAT WOULDN'T BE SUCH A BAD THING. BUT I



1 THINK THAT WE WERE ABLE TO GET A BILL PASSED THAT HASN'T

2 MADE WASHINGTON PERFECT BUT AT LEAST IT MOVING THINGS

3 FORWARD. I GUESS THE OTHER EXAMPLE FROM -- I'M NOT SURE

4 THIS WAS A MORE OF A PARTISAN ISSUE, BUT IT WAS SOMETHING

5 THAT I FELT VERY DEEPLY WAS WHEN I OPPOSED THE INITIAL

6 DECISION TO GO INTO WAR IN IRAQ. THAT WAS A NOT A POPULAR

7 VIEW AT THE TIME AND I WAS JUST STARTING MY CAMPAIGN FOR

8 THE UNITED STATES SENATE AND I THINK THERE WERE A LOT OF

9 PEOPLE WHO ADVISED ME, YOU SHOULD BE CAUTIOUS. THIS IS

10 GOING TO BE SUCCESSFUL. THE PRESIDENT HAS A VERY HIGH

11 APPROVAL RATING AND YOU COULD END UP LOSING THE ELECTION

12 AS A CONSEQUENCE OF THIS.

13 Q LET ME ASK IT THIS WAY: A LOT OF TIMES

14 CANDIDATES ARE ACCUSED OF FLIP FLOPPING, BUT ACTUALLY

15 SOMETIMES FLIPI FLOPPING IS SMART BECAUSE YOU HAVE DECIDED

16 A BETTER POSITION BASED ON KNOWLEDGE THAT YOU DIDN'T HAVE?

17 A RIGHT.

18 Q WHAT'S THE MOST SIGNIFICANT POSITION YOU HELD TEN

19 YEARS AGO THAT YOU NO LONGER HOLD TODAY, THAT YOU FLIPPED

20 ON, YOU CHANGED ON BECAUSE YOU ACTUALLY SEE IT

21 DIFFERENTLY?

22 A BECAUSE I ACTUALLY CHANGED MY MIND.

23 Q YOU CHANGE YOUR MIND, EXACTLY?

24 A YOU KNOW I'M TRYING TO THINK BACK TEN YEARS AGO.

25 I THINK THAT A GOOD EXAMPLE WOULD BE THE ISSUE OF WELFARE





1 REFORM WHERE I ALWAYS BELIEVED THAT WELFARE HAD TO BE

2 CHANGED. I WAS MUCH MORE CONCERNED TEN YEARS AGO WHEN

3 PRESIDENT CLINTON INITIALLY SIGNED THE BILL THAT THIS

4 COULD HAVE DISASTEROUS RESULTS. I WORKED IN THE ILLINOIS

5 LEGISLATURE TO MAKE SURE WE WERE PROVIDING CHILD CARE AND

6 HEALTH CARE AND OTHER SUPPORT SERVICES FOR THE WOMEN WHO

7 HAD -- WHO WERE GOING TO BE KICKED OFF THE ROLLS AFTER A

8 CERTAIN TIME. IT HAD -- IT WORKED BETTER THAN I THINK A

9 LOT OF PEOPLE ANTICIPATED AND YOU KNOW ONE OF THINGS THAT

10 I AM ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED OF IS THAT WE HAVE TO HAVE WORK

11 AS A CENTER PIECE OF ANY SOCIAL POLICY.

12 Q OKAY.

13 A NOT ONLY BECAUSE DID -- NOT ONLY BECAUSE PEOPLE

14 WHO WORK ARE ULTIMATELY GOING TO GET MORE INCOME -- LOST

15 FEED -- I THINK THAT IS SOMETHING THAT DEMOCRATS GENERALLY

16 I THINK HAVE MADE A SIGNIFICANT SHIFT ON.

17 Q WHAT'S THE MOST SIGNIFICANT -- LET ME ASK IT THIS

18 WAY: WHAT'S THE MOST GUT WRENCHING DECISION YOU'VE EVER

19 HAD TO MAKE AND HOW DID YOU PROCESS THAT, COME TO THAT

20 DECISION?

21 A WELL, YOU KNOW, I THINK THE OPPOSITION TO THE WAR

22 IN IRAQ WAS AS TOUGH A DECISION THAT I'VE HAD TO MAKE NOT

23 ONLY BECAUSE THERE WERE POLITICAL CONSEQUENCES BUT ALSO

24 BECAUSE SADDAM HUSSIEM WAS A BAD PERSON AND THERE WAS NO

25 DOUBT THAT HE MET AMERICA ILL, BUT I WAS FIRMLY CONVINCED


8





1 AT THE TIME THAT WE DID NOT HAVE STRONG EVIDENCE OF

2 WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION AND THERE WERE A LOT OF

3 QUESTIONS THAT AS I SPOKE TO EXPERTS KEPT ON COMING UP, DO

4 WE KNOW HOW THE SHIITES AND THE SUNNIS AND THE KURDS ARE

5 GOING TO GET ALONG IN A POST SADDAM SITUATION, WHAT'S OUR

6 ASSESSMENT AS TO HOW THIS WILL AFFECT THE BATTLE AGAINST

7 TERRORIST LIKE AL-QAEDA, HAVE WE FINISHED THE JOB IN

8 AFGHANISTAN SO I AGONIZED OVER THAT AND I THINK QUESTIONS

9 OF WAR AND PEACE GENERALLY ARE SO PROFOUND YOU KNOW WHEN

10 YOU MEET THE TROOPS, THEY ARE 19, 20, 21-YEAR OLD KIDS AND

11 YOU ARE PUTTING THEM INTO HARM'S WAY THERE IS A SOLEMN

12 OBLIGATION THAT YOU DO EVERYTHING YOU CAN TO GET THAT

13 DECISION RIGHT. AND NOW AS THE WAR WENT FORWARD, VERY

14 DIFFICULT ABOUT HOW LONG DO YOU KEEP FUNDING THE WAR IF

15 YOU STRONGLY BELIEVE THAT IT'S NOT AMERICA'S NATIONAL

16 INTEREST AT THE SAME TIME YOU DON'T WANT TO HAVE TROOPS

17 WHO ARE OUT THERE WITHOUT THE EQUIPMENT THEY NEED. SO

18 THAT ALL THOSE QUESTIONS SURROUNDING THE WAR HAVE BEEN

19 VERY DIFFICULT FOR ME.

20 Q WE'LL BE BACK AND WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT WORLD

21 VIEW IN THE NEXT SECTION